As-it-happened: Expenses evidence
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By Alex Stevenson
Sir Christopher Kelly’s committee on standards in public life is grilling Harriet Harman and co on the expenses inquiry. Follow live updates from Westminster as-it-happens on politics.co.uk.
09:57 – In a shock move, Sir Christopher has got the session underway three minutes early. It’s completely deserted here at the moment – there can’t be more than a dozen people spectating in a rather echoey room which could hold ten times that many – but the committee members look serious enough as they prepare to kick off.
10:01 – Sir Christopher lays down the law on an important issue: whether or not the interim measures currently in place will trample on the final proposals to be put forward at the end of this inquiry. “I welcome the measures which have already been taken. and for the avoidance of doubt I want to make it absolutely clear this committee does not feel in any way constrained,” he presses. So there.
10:03 – Professor Sir Anthony King at the opening of his remarks congratulates the committee for not being “bullied” into rushing out proposals. He describes the “remarkably skittish mood” currently prevalent and presses on everyone to “calm down”. With several hours of this session before us, Prof, we’re calm, don’t worry about that.
10:15 – The Millennium Professor of Government at Essex University’s opening statement is just about getting going when he admits he’s getting worked up – and so must therefore stop. He’s clearly unimpressed with the existing system, pointing out for example that just two of the Green Book’s 66 pages are actually necessary – the ones on principles.
10:26 – Is this a culture problem we’re facing? Prof King says the Fees Office conspired with MPs to work the system – and therefore it’s quite clear “there’s something wrong there”.
10:31 – Prof King isn’t sure whether it’s worth putting the code of conduct on the statute book. “I don’t mean to sound disparaging, but they have to be done by being very carefully thought through,” he says. Sir Christopher wants to know whether any doubt is being cast on the principle underlying it. Oh no, Prof King replies. “The general proposition is highly desirable.”
10:39 – Committee member Brian Woods-Scawen raises the question of the constituency-Westminster balance for MPs, as the session digresses to the job description of our elected representatives. He says many MPs will feel they need to “plot a course through bureaucracy” as a way of helping constituents. Prof King says those “performing that function are inevitably not performing another function”. His suggestion is to give MPs more staff facilities so they can do the work.
10:45 – On the same theme, Prof King gives voice to concerns among some MPs that those who are good local MPs are not so good at making laws and holding the government to account in London. “The parliamentary week has been reduced in size, there are these very long recesses. That’s fine for MPs’ constituents – perhaps not so good for the country,” he says.
10:59 – Harriet Harman and her staff have wandered into the room, her high heels echoing around the chamber as Prof King wonders whether he’s answering the question.
11:03 – Sir Christopher picks up a point made by Prof King in his opening remarks, that MPs’ salaries are too low. The Prof is happy to explain his reasoning. “I think if you’re asking people to do a pretty demanding job… if that’s the job that does require quite a wide range of skills then you should pay them on the same basis if they were doing a similar kind of job in other lines of work.” This points to a salary which would not be “enormous” but would be around £80,000 – not the current £64,000.
11:06 – Given the opportunity to make some closing comments, Prof King responds with a courtly “on the contrary – I’ve spoken quite long enough”. A brief pause while Harman takes the chair. She’s opted for the sparkling, not still water. Significant.
11:10 – The Leader of the House is all politeness, thanking the committee for inviting her along. “I firmly believe the overwhelming majority of members of parliament are going to parliament to serve the public interest,” she says, before remembering the old days of MPs being overwhelmed. Her predecessor used to say ‘leave it to me’; that’s simply not possible any more, she points out.
11:17 – “Whatever contributed to how we got there, we know with transparency and independence… [that’s] the way forward,” Harman says as she wraps up opening remarks. “There won’t be a culture, there will just be MPs getting on with their jobs.”
11:24 – Sir Christopher’s question is about accommodation for MPs – and the popular idea of some kind of ‘barracks’ for MPs. How will Harman respond to this? “It’s up to you,” she shrugs, before quickly turning to “the women MPs who come into the House of Commons”. Sir Christopher is worried by the quality of provision issues like “coping with teenagers”, as Harman puts it, raise.
11:28 – Times have changed, Harman reflects. It’s no longer enough that MPs reassure the public that they’ve fixed the problem, so independence is vital.
11:31 – And now we’ve got a very interesting breakthrough on the unanswered question of how the government’s proposals fit in with Sir Christopher’s inquiry. The parliamentary standards authority she describes as “hardware” – “and you’re providing the software”. An interesting interpretation, deftly justifying the government’s politically-motivated intervention in the issue.
11:40 – Harman is enduring a lengthy period of questioning about the government’s plans. She appears to be going round in circles somewhat, explaining again and again that there won’t be any MPs sitting on the new regulatory body, that this is a good thing, that sanctions will be less of an issue because the system will be much more straightforward, etc, etc. It’s a brave new scandal-free world we can look forward to, we’re assured.
11:44 – Labour’s deputy leader is a little frustrated by constant questioning about “culture” as we have the first frisson of disagreement. “There shouldn’t be a culture around allowances!” Ms Harman says, but is slapped down by Sir Christopher who backs up doubts about the effectiveness of regulatory body. Harman is bullish in response. “There won’t be a culture!” she finishes. Sir Christopher says he’s not keen on a “semantics discussion” as the most interesting exchange so far continues.
11:51 – Harman is currently talking about the prominence of first ladies in constituencies – local MPs’ wives being especially well-known. It’s a comment made as part of an argument against public opposition to politicians employing family members.
11:57 – That’s a big concession. At the end of a lengthy defence of the system of employing family members, Harman concedes that it will be very difficult to let it continue and maintain public confidence.
12:13 – Another history lesson, as Harman describes a big change between then and now. “You work in the day, and then dinner and a bit of legislation in the evening”. That’s how it was; things have changed, she presses. It’s a key theme of her comments so far.
12:17 – Harman is defending family travelling expenses. “It’s not about them taking trips at public expense. Because the MP is moving in two different places, their family sometimes needs to be in two different places. If you’ve got teenage children, what are you going to do?”
12:27 – “We don’t do that any more and I think that’s a very good thing that we don’t.” MPs voting on their own pay is the final topic as Harman wraps up. “I’m really grateful you’re taking it on. I wish you well in your endeavours with it,” she finishes.
12:35 – That’s the end of our coverage of the morning session, as committee members wander from their seats for a bite to lunch. Harman was on the defensive more than many might have expected, while King was his usual outspoken self. Lunch – an excellent idea. Thanks for following the coverage.
